Comments on: Windows as a poorly debugged set of device drivers? http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/ on emerging platforms and the power of aggregation and integration Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:28:31 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Ian Murdock http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-767 Ian Murdock Fri, 04 Aug 2006 18:15:14 +0000 http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350#comment-767 It does have a little bit to do with the kernel though. Right now, it's very hard to write and distribute a third party driver because the kernel ABI is a moving target. (Yes, the ABI is important---compiling drivers is not a viable option for the vast majority of people out there.) The current solution, "get it added to the upstream kernel", is an odd and inconsistent one. Why? One of the fundamental strengths of open source development is its distributed nature; yet in the case of Linux drivers, we're told the only viable solution is to centralize everything. I understand that's so the kernel developers can change the API at will. But at some point, the quality of third party software/drivers/etc. needed to build a strong ecosystem needs to come before making the lives of the developers easier. -ian It does have a little bit to do with the kernel though. Right now, it’s very hard to write and distribute a third party driver because the kernel ABI is a moving target. (Yes, the ABI is important—compiling drivers is not a viable option for the vast majority of people out there.) The current solution, “get it added to the upstream kernel”, is an odd and inconsistent one. Why? One of the fundamental strengths of open source development is its distributed nature; yet in the case of Linux drivers, we’re told the only viable solution is to centralize everything. I understand that’s so the kernel developers can change the API at will. But at some point, the quality of third party software/drivers/etc. needed to build a strong ecosystem needs to come before making the lives of the developers easier. -ian

]]> By: Somebody passing by http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-766 Somebody passing by Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:52:13 +0000 http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350#comment-766 All in all this has to do with 3rd party drivers and software, you can't only rely on smart people working in the kernel guessing what to do with devices they didn't design. Linux keeps getting better and better, but it has to keep pace with vendors. Some people are lucky and have everything working (like me) and some other aren't. It can only be changed in the mid-term by making it easy for vendors to deploy their software (I'm thinking of the LSB and Portland) and off course encouraging them to go open source, but also being practical and flexible about propietary software for Linux. All in all this has to do with 3rd party drivers and software, you can’t only rely on smart people working in the kernel guessing what to do with devices they didn’t design. Linux keeps getting better and better, but it has to keep pace with vendors. Some people are lucky and have everything working (like me) and some other aren’t. It can only be changed in the mid-term by making it easy for vendors to deploy their software (I’m thinking of the LSB and Portland) and off course encouraging them to go open source, but also being practical and flexible about propietary software for Linux.

]]> By: wolfgang.lonien.de » Blog Archive » Agent provocateur, or: nice try http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-765 wolfgang.lonien.de » Blog Archive » Agent provocateur, or: nice try Fri, 04 Aug 2006 10:31:19 +0000 http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350#comment-765 [...] Hehe - just stumbled over this. [...] [...] Hehe – just stumbled over this. [...]

]]> By: Ian Murdock http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-764 Ian Murdock Thu, 03 Aug 2006 19:19:08 +0000 http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350#comment-764 I don't propose this as a general strategy for Linux by any means! Maybe a practical solution for a frustrated individual like myself. But mostly just food for thought. I don’t propose this as a general strategy for Linux by any means! Maybe a practical solution for a frustrated individual like myself. But mostly just food for thought.

]]> By: Ian Murdock http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-763 Ian Murdock Thu, 03 Aug 2006 19:16:50 +0000 http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350#comment-763 The same thing I do now: Curse. The same thing I do now: Curse.

]]> By: Alexandre Oliva http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-762 Alexandre Oliva Thu, 03 Aug 2006 18:06:15 +0000 http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350#comment-762 And what do you do when you hit a bug in the driver? Heck, I have even a USB mouse that will instantly crash Windows on boot up if it's plugged in on my wife's notebook! Good thing we don't ever use Windows :-) And what do you do when you hit a bug in the driver? Heck, I have even a USB mouse that will instantly crash Windows on boot up if it’s plugged in on my wife’s notebook! Good thing we don’t ever use Windows :-)

]]> By: Bruno http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-761 Bruno Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:20:19 +0000 http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350#comment-761 3D acceleration on vmware doesn't work either :P 3D acceleration on vmware doesn’t work either :P

]]> By: Linux Daily Log » XGL, repositório autenticado, problemas com drivers e falta de tempo. http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-760 Linux Daily Log » XGL, repositório autenticado, problemas com drivers e falta de tempo. Thu, 03 Aug 2006 00:48:54 +0000 http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350#comment-760 [...] Já no desktop, tentei utilizar o XGL/Compiz, a partir de alguns tutoriais que encontrei por aí, o que resultou em uma estação de trabalho entrando apenas no console, depois de tentar carregar o X. Antes disso, passei quatro meses tentando descobrir porque minha placa Radeon 9550 não habilitava a aceleração 3D. Depois de muita procura, testes e compilações de kernels com parâmetros obscuros, descobri, numa discussão da lista de desenvolvedores do módulo AGPGART, que o problema era a BIOS - a placa K8N, da ASUS, tem um problema sério com a BIOS, em versões posteriores à 1006, que impedem que o módulo funcione corretamente. Esta última situação, e mais algumas coisas espalhadas, me fez refletir um bocado sobre o uso de Linux no desktop. Não estava muito decidido a escrever sobre isso até ler um post, no blog do Ian Murdock, sobre o mesmo tipo de problema, do qual traduzo um trecho a seguir: Claro, há outro lado da moeda nisso: se um sistema operacional é apenas um conjunto de drivers de dispositivos, você não gostaria de ter o conjunto mais amplo? Tão longe quanto o desktop Linux chegou nos últimos anos, ainda fica muito atrás do Windows em termos de plug-and-play. Por exemplo, durante minha recente viagem a Moscou, meus colegas usuários do Windows conectaram-se em redes wireless impunemente, no hotel e até mesmo sentado em táxis no infame tráfego de Moscou. Enquanto eles estavam clicando em agradáveis balões dizendo “rede wireless detectada”, eu estava aprendendo mais do que desejaria saber sobre o iwconfig, xingando enquanto isso. E não foi apenas o wifi. Meu laptop só entrava em suspensão com sucesso cerca de metade do tempo. Por qualquer razão, a aceleração 3D do meu laptop não funcionava com as mais recentes decorações. E por aí vai… [...] [...] Já no desktop, tentei utilizar o XGL/Compiz, a partir de alguns tutoriais que encontrei por aí, o que resultou em uma estação de trabalho entrando apenas no console, depois de tentar carregar o X. Antes disso, passei quatro meses tentando descobrir porque minha placa Radeon 9550 não habilitava a aceleração 3D. Depois de muita procura, testes e compilações de kernels com parâmetros obscuros, descobri, numa discussão da lista de desenvolvedores do módulo AGPGART, que o problema era a BIOS – a placa K8N, da ASUS, tem um problema sério com a BIOS, em versões posteriores à 1006, que impedem que o módulo funcione corretamente. Esta última situação, e mais algumas coisas espalhadas, me fez refletir um bocado sobre o uso de Linux no desktop. Não estava muito decidido a escrever sobre isso até ler um post, no blog do Ian Murdock, sobre o mesmo tipo de problema, do qual traduzo um trecho a seguir: Claro, há outro lado da moeda nisso: se um sistema operacional é apenas um conjunto de drivers de dispositivos, você não gostaria de ter o conjunto mais amplo? Tão longe quanto o desktop Linux chegou nos últimos anos, ainda fica muito atrás do Windows em termos de plug-and-play. Por exemplo, durante minha recente viagem a Moscou, meus colegas usuários do Windows conectaram-se em redes wireless impunemente, no hotel e até mesmo sentado em táxis no infame tráfego de Moscou. Enquanto eles estavam clicando em agradáveis balões dizendo “rede wireless detectada”, eu estava aprendendo mais do que desejaria saber sobre o iwconfig, xingando enquanto isso. E não foi apenas o wifi. Meu laptop só entrava em suspensão com sucesso cerca de metade do tempo. Por qualquer razão, a aceleração 3D do meu laptop não funcionava com as mais recentes decorações. E por aí vai… [...]

]]> By: Adam Brandizzi http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-759 Adam Brandizzi Thu, 03 Aug 2006 00:14:40 +0000 http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350#comment-759 It's really pratical and useful, but it smells like the OS/2 error: adopting compatibility with Windows drivers, why would hardware vendors produce Linux drivers? Didn't you see here a serious risk? It’s really pratical and useful, but it smells like the OS/2 error: adopting compatibility with Windows drivers, why would hardware vendors produce Linux drivers? Didn’t you see here a serious risk?

]]> By: none http://ianmurdock.com/cloud/windows-as-a-poorly-debugged-set-of-device-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-758 none Wed, 02 Aug 2006 16:32:17 +0000 http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350#comment-758 Do you really think doing this encourages driver development? And what happens when you start getting mysterious problems with windows drivers? Is it even possible to track down the problems & fix them? No. You just have to shrug and reinstall windows. Best of both worlds, eh? Do you really think doing this encourages driver development?

And what happens when you start getting mysterious problems with windows drivers? Is it even possible to track down the problems & fix them? No. You just have to shrug and reinstall windows.

Best of both worlds, eh?

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